In this interview with IBA Multimedia Journalist Alice Johnson, Lord Richard Hermer KC, Attorney-General for England and Wales, discusses the essential role of international law in a world of rising geopolitical tensions, efforts to improve the UK’s criminal justice system and the importance of promoting rule of law culture.

Alice Johnson (AJ): What first inspired you to enter the law?

Richard Hermer KC (RH): I didn't grow up always wanting to be a lawyer. When I was a student, my parents were getting increasingly worried as to what would happen to me because I was really unclear about what I wanted to do. Anyway, they persuaded me, against what I thought at the time was my better judgement, to go and spend a week doing work experience with a barrister in Cardiff, in Wales, which is where I come from, and so to keep my parents happy, I agreed I’d go and do it. And I can still, 35 years on, remember that moment of walking into court, sitting down and the barrister started arguing the case and I was captivated. I think it was about ten minutes in when I thought, you know what, this is what I want to do.

AJ: Up until becoming Attorney-General, your career – [which includes] significant work on human rights cases and [your] position as the Head of Chambers at Matrix Chambers – hadn't entered politics. Why did you agree to become Attorney-General?

RH: I've always been really interested in international affairs and global politics. Firstly, you get an offer from the Prime Minister to do a job like this. I think anybody who is committed to public service is going to say yes to that. The reason why the job was one that I embraced is because it’s got that mix of the things that I find really interesting and compelling within public service. It’s obviously law and I love law, but it’s also the intersection between law and domestic politics, and law and national security, and law in international politics. All of the things I find fascinating and important come together for me in this extraordinary privilege of a lifetime to be Attorney-General.

AJ: In October 2024, in your first full-length speech since your appointment as Attorney-General, you spoke about the populist challenge and the government’s plan to restore the UK’s reputation as a leader in the field of international law. How do you feel the government is doing on that project so far?

RH: It’s not a project in which you can, at any one point in time, say we have succeeded. It’s an ongoing leadership role that we have to play in the world by explaining not only to our partners, but to the world generally, all the important things that international law brings; not least stability, stability that allows for prosperity, stability that allows for security. I think we’ve been very consistent throughout our time in government about the importance of that framework. And you've seen it in the leadership of the Prime Minister [Keir Starmer]. When we came into power, in July 2024, the United Kingdom's role on the international stage had been diminished. World leaders [now] come to London and they turn to the Prime Minister when there’s international uncertainty or instability, so we have re-established that leadership role.

At those moments, when you face immediate challenge or you’re looking ahead across the horizon to long-term challenges, you have to ask yourself: [does] keeping within this international rules-based order that we have benefited from so much since 1945 remain in the national interest? And I’m convinced it does. I’m convinced it does for reasons of security of this country. I believe it does for reasons of prosperity in this country, as well as the international community as a whole. So, I think this is a moment to effectively double down on the importance of the international frameworks that keep us all safe.

AJ: What do you think the solutions are to strengthening an international rules-based order and holding those accountable who may violate it?

RH: I think it’s clarity about the importance of international law. You will have seen from the Prime Minister that there have been some very tense moments over the last few months in which international law has been tested. And at each point, the Prime Minister has been absolutely clear that a guiding principle to navigate our way through those circumstances is our belief in international law and that there’s a framework that keeps people together because that's in the national interest.

AJ: You have an impressive background working on international human rights issues. I know you've spoken out against calls from the political opposition to leave the European Convention on Human Rights. The government has said it wants to look again at the interpretation by the UK courts of the ECHR. What do you think needs to change?

RH: Any international law instrument or any international law institution has to evolve as society evolves, as the challenges that we face evolve, and we’ve been very clear within the Council of Europe about the need for the interpretation of the Convention and the institutions to adapt to the challenges we have. That’s why we’ve been working with partners across the Council of Europe. We’re in discussions at the moment. At the same time, we’ve made crystal clear that we are supporters of the Convention and always have been under this government and we always will be. And there are really compelling reasons why we are supporters. And that is because the European Convention of Human Rights – in large part drafted by Brits and reflecting values that have been long-held in this country – time and time again has delivered and upheld [the] rights of working people in this country and that's why we're supporters of it.

AJ: In his review, Sir Brian Leveson identified a criminal justice system in crisis leading to record court backlogs and devastating impacts on victims and defendants. What do you see as the primary cause of this crisis, and do you agree with him that the criminal justice system requires radical reform rather than just financial investment?

RH: I agree with Sir Brian that radical reform is required. And I know my colleague, the Deputy Prime Minister, David [Lammy], is laser-focused on ensuring that we deal with this backlog that we inherited when we came into government. The figures are of themselves staggering; over 80,000 cases still waiting to go through the system. But the human stories that lie beneath those figures are dreadful. You can wait at the moment up to four years if you are a victim of a rape to have your case determined. Four years of every night terrified about the trial that might await you. You’ve got defendants who are now gaming the system because it takes so long thinking that if they enter a not guilty plea the complainant might walk away. Completely unacceptable. You can see it in every other area of crime. You can't allow that to remain. We've got to think radically about how we address it. Sir Brian’s work has been really helpful in identifying different steps that we can take. And I know that David, the Lord Chancellor, is determined to drive it forward.

AJ: David Lammy recently announced plans to scrap the right to jury trial for offences with sentences of less than three years, which goes further than what was recommended by Sir Brian Leveson. This is being strongly criticised by many members of the criminal bar, who argue it would jeopardise the right to a fair trial and undermine trust in the justice system. What is your response to that?

RH: In my previous job, I was instructed in lots of cases that were to do with miscarriages of justice and so I understand the importance of jury trials within the criminal justice system. The starting point is this: there is no absolute right to a jury trial in this country. Indeed, about 90 per cent of cases are never dealt with by a jury. What we have done before is identify the threshold at which a case can be dealt with by a judge alone and that where there is a right to a jury. That threshold, which is currently at 12 months for a sentence, isn't one that’s identified by natural law. It’s a policy decision as to where you’re going to put that threshold. And so, what we are proposing now is a matter of policy, endorsed as it is going to have to be through Parliament, and it is to raise that threshold to deal with an absolute acute crisis that we are facing. It’s not the only thing that we are doing. We’re trying to use all the kind of tools in the tool bag to address what is a really profound problem at the moment.

AJ: And do you not feel that it could potentially lead to increased discrimination and prejudice against minority groups? I mean some people might say judges typically come from a certain kind of background, white, male, privileged, and they don’t reflect the diversity that a jury can bring. What would you say to those kinds of concerns?

RH: I am really passionate about getting out there and talking about the rule of law, not least to young people. We are out there, we are working with schools, we're working with young people to explain what the rule of law is, which is, you know, if you want to distil it down to its essence in a way that I would describe it to young people, it’s about fair play. It's about having a clear set of rules that everybody has to apply to themselves, no one is above those rules. It’s about having independent [referees] if you have a dispute about whether you’ve broken the rules or not. And so, we’re out there in classrooms, we’re working hard with the Department of Education to think about how we get this into the national curriculum. We’ve just, in this department, had a process to work with what we're calling YAP, our Youth Ambassador Programme, which is [a group of] young people between 18 and 25 who are passionate about the rule of law [and are] out there on social media explaining it because, and this was no surprise to anybody, they’re going to be better at communicating that than I am.

AJ: What would you say to people who, in a world of rising international conflicts, authoritarianism and disregard for human rights, may have lost hope that international law and democratic institutions can hold raw power accountable?

RH: Don’t give up hope. This government, along with lots of governments, believe in the rule of law and we’re not going to stop talking about it. And I think people believe in it. When people are clear about their belief in it, when we stand up for what we believe, it will survive. I am absolutely optimistic about the future for this country, and indeed about the future for the globe, and core to that is the central underpinning of the rule of law.

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This is an abridged version of the interview with Lord Richard Hermer KC. The filmed interview can be viewed in full here.