Sara Carnegie (SC): I'm here today with Carola van den Bruinhorst, a role model and inspirational legal woman from the Netherlands. It’s great to speak with you, Carola, and I’m delighted you’re taking part in our Inspirational Legal Women podcast series to celebrate some of our incredible members and their achievements and career in the legal profession.
By way of introduction, you’re a Dutch lawyer and you’ve worked with law firm Loyens & Loeff for over 20 years, during which time you’ve increased your focus on transformation issues and development for partners. I know you’ve done a huge amount about that, and we’re going to hear more on those issues and your career in a few moments, but I should also acknowledge that you’ve been a member of the International Bar Association (IBA) for many years, contributing in so many areas and generously giving of your time, including being a member of the Management Board and Chair of the Legal Practice Division (LPD), the largest division of the IBA. I also wanted to note, before we start, your incredible work in establishing the IBA’s Diversity and Inclusion Council, which I believe you started in 2018. I certainly recall coming to a very early meeting which you and Sarah Hutchinson chaired in Budapest in 2019, which was only a few months after I started the job, and thinking you were quite remarkable there.
And so, we’re here today to talk about what you’ve done, some of the challenges and experiences you’ve had, different places where you’ve lived and worked, and any advice you may have for women entering or navigating their own career in law. So welcome Carola.
Carola van den Bruinhorst (CVDB): Thank you, Sara.
SC: We’ll start off really with the beginning, I guess: what motivated you to pursue a career in law and how did you decide what type of law was of most interest to you?
CVDB: I never really dreamt of becoming a lawyer. It wasn’t a career that I was specifically considering when I was a child or later. My dream was to become a journalist and that could have been a very good career path for me as well. But at the time, when I had to choose where to go to university, journalism was a school and I really wanted to go to university because I was fascinated by problem-solving and understanding systems, and then that led me to the law. So, it was really intellectual challenge that I was looking for.
When I progressed, I found myself being drawn to corporate and tax law, again, due to the intellectual challenge and the impact that it has on businesses, which was also the reason why I joined a law firm in the end. So, I was a partner in the firm for 20 years and then my role expanded more to leadership and to talent development and other management roles, and that became just as rewarding as the legal work itself.
So, my path has been quite atypical. I spent a lot of time abroad for the firm. I was involved in many different roles internally, as well as in external initiatives, and ultimately, I found my profession in driving change within the firm and the legal profession. So, the journey was more about discovering my passion while working as a lawyer. It was not really following clear and early vision, but I found it in the end.
SC: I think that’s often the way for quite a few people. They may start off thinking the path is linear and then divergence arises and different opportunities appear along the way. And I think it’s always fantastic that people try those different things and probably have an enriched career as a consequence. How have you balanced the demands of such a high-pressure career with your personal life and personal responsibilities? Are there any things that you could recommend to people that have been particularly helpful to you?
CVDB: For everyone with a very busy career, with lots of pressure externally, definitely a challenge and our personal life is just as important, if not more important. It is a balancing act, absolutely, especially when we work with demanding clients or when we manage large teams or, in my case, when I was leading and often in different countries. It starts, I think, with delegation. Effective delegation has been key and I’ve always made a point of trusting the people that work with me: so trusting my teams and empowering them, giving them the opportunity to grow. That was the case in managing complex client matters, but also in overseeing firm initiatives. I’ve always enjoyed working with my team, but that’s only possible when you really trust them and give them opportunities to grow and to empower them. So that’s one element of this balancing act.
Another important thing is to prioritise and know what’s important and then to set clear boundaries. And that really helped me to stay focused on both my professional commitments, which were many with all those different things that I pursued in my career and my personal life. So outside of work, I’ve always made time for activities that help me, rejuvenate me, that I find important, and make sure to live a healthy life and to regularly work out. Finally, travel, as it literally broadens horizons and brings me to different spaces.
SC: I think the clear boundary-setting is absolutely vital. I do think sometimes it can be challenging for junior lawyers to do that and wonder whether that’s something that you've always been able to somehow achieve or whether it’s become inevitably easier as you get more senior?
CVDB: It is easier when you get more senior. It is definitely easier also because as you get more senior, then you’re more in charge of your own diary. That helps a lot, of course. So, I understand that it can be even more challenging for junior lawyers. When we get to advice, I think – to junior lawyers, female lawyers – in any event later, it is very important to speak on that as well.
SC: What’s been your biggest challenge that you’ve faced and how have you managed to navigate that during your career?
CVDB: I’ve worked as a partner in an international firm for decades. There have been many challenges. Becoming a partner was one thing, of course. Surviving as a partner in the early years was a real challenge, too. It was in the late nineties, early 2000s, and I was the only woman partner in the Amsterdam office at the time so that was not easy. But, you know, I managed. And going to Hong Kong, of course, I was asked to set up a new office for the firm and that also really meant exploring new markets in China and across Asia. That was challenging too, but a lot of fun.
Maybe one of the biggest challenges, but also one of the more rewarding things I faced in my career, was over the past five years when I took on the responsibility of setting up and implementing a partner assessment and a partner development programme. That was a challenge, of course, you can imagine that there was some resistance, particularly from partners who were initially reluctant to embrace performance assessments and feedback on development areas, but at the end it was also one of the most rewarding experiences as the programme really led to a significant shift in behaviour and mindset across the firm. And it did not only enhance individual growth but also improved the firm’s overall performance. What we have accomplished as a team is quite unique in the legal industry.
SC: You feel perhaps that programme has transformed the culture of the law firm, would you say?
CVDB: It’s the first step. The firm has a strong culture, but it definitely has changed behaviour...
SC: Absolutely, I think that’s pivotal and for leaders to be able to exhibit those traits...
CVDB: Exactly, I think is it confirms the importance of good leadership and of organisational change...
SC: That’s wonderful because we need to create an evolving environment...
CVDB: There was a time that women were expected to lean in...
SC: A very important point: how to navigate that challenge of being both diplomatic but assertive...
CVDB: The best advice, I think, is to remain authentic...
SC: Thank you, Carola. Those are brilliant forms of advice...
CVDB: Thank you.
